Curse

LexTalionis · Mar 06, 2012, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Been testing this for a few days. Now that Assassin hero chains have actually been fixed, they actually go pretty well with AP builds, but I was still having problems with AP in areas with enemy hex removal. I tried countering them with FD (Daze is an excellent hex-removal counter), but I found that FD tends to be too slow in some areas and tends to get removed very quickly. Luckily, the Hero AI for Extend Conditions is excellent and can keep daze/blind on entire enemy packs for perpetuity.

Beguiling Haze is one of the best Daze skills out there - it's a shadowstep with a short recharge and inflicts unconditional mid-duration daze. The only real rival it has is BHA, which has issues(tm) with actually hitting. Otherwise, Technobabble has always been slightly too short to work perfectly with Extend, and the other daze skills tend to be slow to charge (Stunning Strike), slow to inflict (Temple Strike), conditional (almost everything else), or melee ranged (Spear Swipe).

The main problem is that it costs 15 energy, which leaves the Assassin in danger of not having much energy to carry out the actual attack chain, especially since the AI is too stupid to maintain Critical Eye out of combat. As a result, I ended up using Weapon of Renewal (Ether Signet rarely gets used, it could probably be replaced). Most of the other Assassin E management skills don't help much if you're already out of energy - they tend to trigger off offhand or dual attacks, hence I find it works smoother with Weapon of Renewal (than splinter, even). Unseen Fury is also essential against blocking - the hero uses it excellently and after some testing, it seems a lot easier than fiddling around with stance-ending skills.

UA isn't necessary - any strong support build will do, it's just there in case the Assassin runs off thanks to poor pathing (was doing TotPK for fun).

It's a pretty fun build so far. Enemy packs are more or less perma blinded and dazed (Rupture Soul helps a lot if stuff gets past your Assassin) and the AI is -excellent- (repetition for emphasis) at Extend. It's also a lot more difficult for the AI to remove AP when it's dazed and has a EBVAS on it. Obviously, Extend doesn't have the AoE that FD does, but it doesn't clog an entire skillbar with condition inflicting stuff when all I really want is just consistent blind and daze. It's also fast enough not to have Hex removal bait > FD > Enemy hits you with Rain of Fire problems.

The problem now is taking the build a step further, it's still overrelying on SoGM/MM. Ideally, fitting in a Curses Necro for MoP/Barbs or a second Assassin (dropping 3 assassins on an AP marked target is already a very fast way of ensuring its death), hence I've been thinking of turning the MM (who isn't doing much since EBVAS is doing most of the work) into Curses or Orders (with a second Assassin). Of course, Splinter might also be nice. I'm also thinking the SoGM (which is a bit slow) could be swapped out for a second Assassin. At this point, I'm open to brainstorming though - is there anything I've overlooked?

Lukyboy · Mar 06, 2012, 11:28 AM // 11:28

First off, let me say that if hex removal is countering your AP build, maybe you should run a diffrent build instead of turning your entire team around to counter that 1 problem.

Something I noticed about your build is that you run an ST rit and an MM. These dont go very well together, because the minions will make your spirit of shelter explode. So go with your idea of turning the MM into something else, since it looks like you need the ST rit more.

LexTalionis · Mar 06, 2012, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Dear Sir: Thank you for your generic advice taken right off PvXwiki, but I'm not a neonate when it comes to team building. I've been running MM + ST for over a year and a half. Properly managed, there is no issue with this combination whatsoever. Minions don't mysteriously take more damage out of nowhere unless you're fighting the SpiritualPain-Monster (If a monster is hitting your minion and eating up a Shelter charge, it's probably blinded and in any case it's better than have it hit an actually relevant character), and if AoEing enemy elementalists do exist, there's a reason I run PI in my AP builds.

The entire purpose of the thread was coming up with a better build to support AP in hex-removal heavy areas. Saying "Don't run AP" is contrary to the point of the entire thread, considering the build works pretty well in those areas right now.

Not New · Mar 06, 2012, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Have you considered running an emo hero with 2x sins? In my experience the combo tends to work better. Also I'm not so sure about your BiP hero.. they wont cast it on anybody holding melee weapons.

And now a general question not directed specifically at you....

Why do people still make 7 hero builds? Once I Vanq everything on my main.. i stopped caring ... I just do ZM,ZB,ZV with PuGS these days. My heroes are still there to add as filler in parties...But other than that... I don't really use them anymore...

Pew · Mar 06, 2012, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I like the idea of Beguiling Haze + Extend Conditions, although my first question would be: Do you really need to use Extend over Epidemic? (As if you don't, you could run Panic/Ineptitude/Shared Burden on the mesmer hero.)

Running 3 rits in your team seems pointless, definately drop the SoGM. (although you could drop the ST as well, I'll come to that later).
Replace Painful Bond with Splinter on your SoS and give it Resto heals.
You could drop the UA healer altogether by running heals on your rit, replace it with a Necro healer, that carries MoP.
"SYG!" seems pointless if you're going to be under perma Shelter, replace that with something useful.
Your party shouldn't need BiP, as they all have access to decent e-management themselves (aside from the assassin, but you helped remedy that with WoR).

MM + ST is your choice, but I usually find not that they don't work together; more of the fact that they aren't needed together. In all but the toughest areas, SoA, Prot Spirit and Aegis/Shield Guardian; as well as the actual minion meatwall are plenty protection. Only taking one or the other gives you a whole extra hero slot to play with, which could give you your extra Assassin hero, or your curses necromancer. (although I did manage to free a slot for them anyway.)
If you're dead-set on running both, it makes it harder to fit everything into the team build.

The only other thing I noticed was a lack of IAS on the assassin, as you lose WotA. You could take flurry over Blinding Powder/Unseen Fury, although that's more energy problems, and I'm sure it won't really make too much of a difference. (I'd probably drop Blinding Powder even without taking Flurry though.)

Anyway, I gave it a few minutes in pawned, and came up with this:

(assuming you'd keep both the MM and ST rit.)
You get the Curses from the resto nec, you keep everything else you had (ie, replaced UA heals with more ritu heals) and get to buff your assassins to high heaven with SoH!

There's only one res, because it should be really hard to die with this amount of defense, although if a second becomes needed, then it'd easily fit on one of the first 3 heroes.
IV could be replaced with any curses elite, or even BiP I guess, if you find you really can't function without it.

I'd personally like to have more "Fall Back!", and was toying with the idea of taking an Illusion mesmer for Shared Burden or Ineptitude (removes need for blind skills on sin.) over a second Assassin, but seeing as you're using AP, the extra sin will be more helpful. (Also the same reason I went for Putrid Bile and IV as skills.)

I did just copy/paste the second assassin build, although having a different teleport would probably be preferable as one of the Dazes will be put to waste. (unless you're micro-ing them, in which case take both.)
I gave them Way of the Lotus as placeholder energy-management, and would probably be more inclined to take one of the Lotus Strikes, although without testing I wouldn't know how useful they were.

Myself; I'd drop either the ST or MM, and run something more like this:

Partly because of the overkill in defense otherwise, and partly because I have a hard-on for high specced Blood Bond and OotV! :> (OotV + Blood Bond #1 fan right here.)
In most situations I'd go for the MM as it's more bodyblocking/MoP triggers/big explosions when things die, although it's easily interchangeable with the ST rit.
Again, I thought about filling the extra slot with an Illusion mesmer, but decided to buff the sins more instead.

There's not much room for /P command utilities unfortunately (although you could drop some attribs from the EC Mesmer, stick some there, and take the second mesmer with more "FB!".)

I'd consider changing the dom spec on the mesmer to Illusion as well, as if everything is dazed, then you may get more mileage from Wandering Eye/Clumsiness, but you'd lose out on Shatter Hex, unfortunately.

Everyone plays their own way though, that'd just be my take on it! :>
I'm actually really interested how this would work with a non-AP player, might give it a spin later, and just run a Barrage player or something.

Also, I realise I've moved more away from having assassins keep things dazed and moved more towards them being a big focal point of the build, but hopefully it's a change for the better, and hopefully gets full mileage from them!

LexTalionis · Mar 06, 2012, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Thanks for the responses, I think they're rather well thought out, so I'll reply individually.

@Not New: Of the heroes in that team, the BiP, SoGM and ST rit aren't really essential. They're just filler, but out of them, I require either ST or a Protter for HM, and I don't really trust the Hero AI with prots as much. If BiP hit the Assassin hero, I wouldn't have needed Renewing Weapon, I just threw that in because I was sick of having to target him and hit the BiP hotkey. Also, it's a crutch that I use to compensate my lack of energy management - I certainly wouldn't recommend it to everyone. The problem with playing E/Mo and doing the protting myself is that I find it exceedingly boring and stuff actually dies a lot more slowly than if I just abused overpowered PvE skills myself.

Personally, I still do PvE in GW because I find playing around with skills kind of a macro-micro-strategic exercise which is kind of fun. Unfortunately, I don't really have the patience to sit around waiting for teams to find "monks" for ZBs, and PUGging tends to drastically lower my opinion of the average GW player.

@Pew: Epidemic's main issue is that unlike Extend, the radius is quite small and it can't prolong a 9 second daze into a 30 second one. (Extend does this by the second or third application)

The reason behind the BnB Jagged>Fox> Blossom combo on heroes is that it largely makes IAS on Assassins irrelevant as it uses fixed cast time dagger skills, which get spammed a lot faster than autoattacks. IAS would definitely be more of an issue if blossom got off more often, but after testing this over the last two days, I noticed there's a very disturbing habit for the occasional enemy to implode after Fox Fangs before Blossom even fires. This made Way of the Lotus pretty poor at managing energy - I wanted the energy frontloaded and not backloaded, if you will (if an assassin is just doing Jagged > Fox repeatedly, it'll never get that energy).

Of course, Lotus is alright when enemies actually survive long enough for Blossom to get off, but there were too many instances where it just gave the hero -5 energy every 20 seconds.

I did try toying around with IAS from Tiger's Fury and a pet, but the spike damage actually dropped somehow.

All this being said, if you wanted to use rangers and avoid AP abuse, you could probably still get permadaze if you used Concussion or BHA on heroes with extend. Barrage spam on a group of dazed things is pretty effective. The only thing you'd lose out is that Rangers aren't especially good at dealing long duration blinds from a distance. Part of the beauty of Haze+ Unseen Fury is that the daze and blind durations are obscene and applied within 1 second of the shadowstep. (I'd consider Dervishes if they weren't terrible at doing Daze)

Thanks for your ideas though (SYG could definitely be dropped), I'm going to try fitting a ranger in the build, I've always been a fan of their incredible elemental resistance.

Lukyboy · Mar 06, 2012, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

Dear Sir: Thank you for your generic advice taken right off PvXwiki, but I'm not a neonate when it comes to team building. I've been running MM + ST for over a year and a half. Properly managed, there is no issue with this combination whatsoever. Minions don't mysteriously take more damage out of nowhere unless you're fighting the SpiritualPain-Monster (If a monster is hitting your minion and eating up a Shelter charge, it's probably blinded and in any case it's better than have it hit an actually relevant character), and if AoEing enemy elementalists do exist, there's a reason I run PI in my AP builds.

The entire purpose of the thread was coming up with a better build to support AP in hex-removal heavy areas. Saying "Don't run AP" is contrary to the point of the entire thread, considering the build works pretty well in those areas right now.

Dear sir,

Let me first express my feelings towards your sinister response. You open a thread asking for advice about something you have created and a the first bit of critique, you go in a overly defensive stance and leash out toward said critique. You could have expected such a response and, in my opinion, you could react more calmly.

Now, allow me to further explain my "generic advice taken right off PvXwiki". Since you've run the MM+ST combo for well over a year, I don't have to tell you that minions will eat a charge of Shelter fairly quickly. Since you'll have about 8 minions running at a time, thats 8 charges of Shelter wasted on something you don't want to protect in the first place. The reason it works is because the minions alone are enough protection for your party. Thus, the spirit of shelter is wasted. Since the spirit of shelter is the backbone of the ST rit, one could say the ST rit is wasted. considering that, one could say a MM and an ST rit are not an effective combination. Now ofcourse, you already know this, because you are, as you say, not a "neonate when it comes to teambuilding."

Still, I found it odd that you would run such a combination. Based on the arguments I previously stated, I gave you a tip, which you can read in my original post.

I would love to debate this issue with you further, but I'm afraid you will not appreciate my advice any longer.

I wish you a good day

Bodock · Mar 06, 2012, 08:25 PM // 20:25

but doesnt protecting the minions make them live longer?

LexTalionis · Mar 06, 2012, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bodock

but doesnt protecting the minions make them live longer?

It does. The main thing to note is that MM/ST is not as bad a combination as people make it out to be. It doesn't mean that your Shelter dies instantly, and it is by no means completely synergistic, but there are overall large benefits to ST over Protection prayers that make it worth considering.

Still, that's the reason when I run ST/MM, Pain Inverter is pretty much a given as it ensures that anything that could possibly be a problem will die in a matter of seconds.

@Lukyboy: I probably shouldn't have sounded so hostile in my response, you have my apologies for that - it was very bad form for me.

madriel222 · Mar 06, 2012, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Playtested that second build Pew put up, just killing the balanced Charr groups in Grothmar. Sins were a little on the squishy side, but overall went well. Definitely something that could be built around.

Pew · Mar 06, 2012, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

@Pew: Epidemic's main issue is that unlike Extend, the radius is quite small and it can't prolong a 9 second daze into a 30 second one. (Extend does this by the second or third application)

The reason behind the BnB Jagged>Fox> Blossom combo on heroes is that it largely makes IAS on Assassins irrelevant as it uses fixed cast time dagger skills, which get spammed a lot faster than autoattacks. IAS would definitely be more of an issue if blossom got off more often, but after testing this over the last two days, I noticed there's a very disturbing habit for the occasional enemy to implode after Fox Fangs before Blossom even fires. This made Way of the Lotus pretty poor at managing energy - I wanted the energy frontloaded and not backloaded, if you will (if an assassin is just doing Jagged > Fox repeatedly, it'll never get that energy).

Of course, Lotus is alright when enemies actually survive long enough for Blossom to get off, but there were too many instances where it just gave the hero -5 energy every 20 seconds.

I did try toying around with IAS from Tiger's Fury and a pet, but the spike damage actually dropped somehow.

All this being said, if you wanted to use rangers and avoid AP abuse, you could probably still get permadaze if you used Concussion or BHA on heroes with extend. Barrage spam on a group of dazed things is pretty effective. The only thing you'd lose out is that Rangers aren't especially good at dealing long duration blinds from a distance. Part of the beauty of Haze+ Unseen Fury is that the daze and blind durations are obscene and applied within 1 second of the shadowstep. (I'd consider Dervishes if they weren't terrible at doing Daze)

Thanks for your ideas though (SYG could definitely be dropped), I'm going to try fitting a ranger in the build, I've always been a fan of their incredible elemental resistance.

Oh wow it totally didn't even occur to me that the effects of Extend stacked.. I definitely see why it's there over Epidemic now.

I didn't explicitly mean Way of The Lotus as energy management, but I know that the bar is in need of energy management so just threw that there in the space; it was intended to be replaced by whatever energy management is the better at the time.
I considered Golden Lotus Strike/Lotus Strike, but that'd probably hinder your DPS.

The IAS still increases the attack speed (of fixed-speed attack skills), although I can see why it's not a priority.

I just took it as a theorycrafting exercise really, if there was anything I actually meant to get across is that optimising/specialising builds can really free up a lot of space within a team :>

If you're looking to use MoP for your assassins to trigger, I'd probably move away from an AP build personally, as insta-gibbing the MoP target will probably be more hinderance than help. Running a general Dom/Illusion build could have its benefits, although I know that the point of the thread is less general than such. :>

As much as I'm a huge fan of Rangers, I don't know how useful one is going to be in this build. I'd probably take it over a second assassin in the case of running one though, Volley + Enraged Lunge (could probably take EoE w/ Draw Spirit if you really fancy some micro-ing.) seeing as Barrage AI isn't optimal. (unless this recent update has changed this?) Or IA w/ Ignite Arrows, but the extra body and DW spam seems too good to pass up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

Playtested that second build Pew put up, just killing the balanced Charr groups in Grothmar. Sins were a little on the squishy side, but overall went well. Definitely something that could be built around.

:>>>>>>
Out of curiosity, did you run the MM or an ST rit? I notice that using the ST rit makes it easier to prot more than one frontline.
Also minions will likely lag behind the assassins, and not really do their job of tanking. Didn't really think that through very much, ups :>

Jeydra · Mar 06, 2012, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quick question: why use Beguiling Haze instead of Fevered Dreams for the Daze?

I have thought about builds like this one, but it always seemed to me that the EC Mesmer is better off going EC / Resto for healing power, and I never needed more Restoration heals.

madriel222 · Mar 07, 2012, 01:08 AM // 01:08

@Pew. When I posted I had only played with the MM, and you're right, it lags a little behind. The ST rit variation tested a bit better, though I use a slightly different bar.

mortenya · Mar 07, 2012, 01:18 AM // 01:18

@Jeydra i think it's because haze lasts longer, and with the daze from FD, it would still be hard for EC to keep daze up indefinitely.

@Lukyboy when an ST rit has shelter as it's only spirit, it doesn't matter that one gets popped while the minions are inc, they can drop another instantly. also, using shelter with an MM allows the minions to stay alive and be that meat wall for way longer, in the end, it works out to your benefit.

my question, would fragility be much benefit to this build, or are there not enough conditions flying around to really make that go?

Daesu · Mar 07, 2012, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortenya

@Lukyboy when an ST rit has shelter as it's only spirit, it doesn't matter that one gets popped while the minions are inc, they can drop another instantly. also, using shelter with an MM allows the minions to stay alive and be that meat wall for way longer, in the end, it works out to your benefit.

This argument of a ST rit in the company of a minion bomber has been around for a long long time.

The counter argument for letting minions stay alive longer is, if you want minions to stay alive, then you should not be using a minion bomber in the first place. You should bring a minion master with maybe, BoTM, to heal the minions and bring sturdier minions than just bone minions. Unfortunately, the hero AI is much better playing a minion bomber.

As for that specific build, I am more concerned with Rupture Soul which destroys an allied spirit instantly than I am with minions over Shelter. I wonder if the AI is smart enough not to rupture its own Shelter. Even though there is only 1 spirit in the ST rit's bar, ST has a 15s recharge and it is not strictly true that they can always drop one instantly, even in the worst situations.

mortenya · Mar 07, 2012, 01:52 AM // 01:52

well it could be argued many ways and the right way always seems to be based on personal experience/opinion.

about heroes recasting shelter, mine always seem to favor union over shelter.

Daesu · Mar 07, 2012, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by mortenya

well it could be argued many ways and the right way always seems to be based on personal experience/opinion.

about heroes recasting shelter, mine always seem to favor union over shelter.

I still have second thoughts when bringing a minion bomber with a ST rit even though it is probably fine but a little counter intuitive.

On one extreme, if minions don't die then they don't deal damage from Death Nova which takes an expensive 2s to cast for each minion, this defeats the purpose of bringing a minion bomber in the first place. Bone minions are low level minions and they don't deal much damage by themselves even if you manage to keep them alive for a long time. Their "damage value" comes from their ability to easily die and blow up with death nova.

On the other hand, I can understand the usefulness of having a minion wall or meat shield, especially for a team of casters. But with good Shelter and Displacement, do you really need a minion wall? I ask this because my casters don't seem to need a MM anymore for most areas when vanquishing. I am sure my mesmers also play a part to keep the team safe through interrupts. A MM only seems to slow them down nowadays.

LexTalionis · Mar 07, 2012, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Quick question: why use Beguiling Haze instead of Fevered Dreams for the Daze?

I have thought about builds like this one, but it always seemed to me that the EC Mesmer is better off going EC / Resto for healing power, and I never needed more Restoration heals.

Mortenya has it right, I usually don't really want to go to deeply into inspiration, and FD's daze only lasts 3 seconds. Extend would turn this into 3x1.62 rounded down= 4 seconds, which wouldn't be consistently extendable. Even Technobabble is a bit difficult because Extend needs to be done again the very instant it comes off recharge in order to get it to a 30 second duration. With a 9 second daze (with mods) from Beguiling, it turns into a 13 second daze on the first application, then 19 and 29 seconds.

The other issue with FD as I've already discussed, it's a very good skill, but it's a bit slow to set up and is extremely reliant on the one single monster hexed with FD. Extend doesn't have that limitation - bunch of monsters attacking your backline? If one is blinded, all of them are now. It then goes right back to making life hell for the monsters on the frontline. FD also has the bad habit of getting removed in the aftercast, having the FDed monster implode before any conditions are inflicted on it, being cast on retarded targets far away from anything relevant, and requires an entire hero completely devoted to it - although it DOES work better with fragility than Extend does.

With the long duration of Beguiling, Extend doesn't necessarily need to be on a Mesmer, although FC does help with the recharge. Resto/Inspiration Rit might work better off if you wanted to do that.

@Daesu: I have a silly theory behind Rupture. When monsters attack me, the backline usually stays put while the frontline rushes forwards, it therefore follows that anything within range of Rupture (which only ever gets used if something is in range of the spirits) is a melee enemy (or the rare point-blank elementalist), which tend to cluster around spirits. At that point, hitting them with a 10 second blind that gets extended into 30 seconds is probably going to prevent more damage than shelter ever could.

So far, I've not had significant problems with the theory - although if I took out SoGM, I probably wouldn't be as quick to include Rupture.

Jeydra · Mar 07, 2012, 11:04 AM // 11:04

Well you could give your Mesmers Silencing weapons, which would make FD's Daze last 4s, and then Extend (give it high spec) would make it ~10s or perhaps more on the first cast. I dunno, maybe.

I like the concept, but I'm deeply skeptical about using an Assassin to inflict Dazed. It might be just anti-melee bias, but yeah. Dazed is just really hard to inflict.

Outerworld · Mar 07, 2012, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Even with a Silencing mod, it would be a pretty fine line on the second Extend use. If I'm completely honest though, the 4s from FD is often enough for most situations.